Tara Theatre – November 1
In Conversation with Georgia WIN List Executive Director Melita Easters
Key points of the conversation are edited for clarity. See photos from the event here.
Melita: We’re so thrilled to have Joyce Vance here to talk about her book “Giving Up is Unforgivable” which debuted at number four on The New York Times best seller list — one spot ahead of the son of the president.
Joyce, this is the ninth stop on your book tour, and you’ve appeared at prestigious venues such as the 92nd street Y in New York and the National Press Club in Washington last week. The Commonwealth Club in San Francisco and the Writers Guild Theater in Los Angeles this week. We’re very honored to have you in Atlanta this evening. What is your read since on the American mood based on the people you’ve come in contact with since the book tour began?
Joyce: I think that’s a perfect question and a great place for us to start. It is so nice to be in Atlanta – you guys are right next door to home in Birmingham, and so it’s nice to be here with y’all.
I wrote this book in many ways, in my role as an academic and as a legal scholar. It seemed to me that the important point to emphasize was that democracy was more important than politics – that we needed to have a democracy to have politics. Obviously, I was a democratic appointee in the Obama administration. I love debating policy with my conservative Republican friends.
Those conversations have now been supplanted by this unbelievable sense of collaboration between “Never Trumper” Republicans and progressive Democrats who are all willing to set aside their differences to some extent to move democracy forward. And, the question really is – whether there are enough of us who are in that mindset?
What’s been most interesting to me, traveling across the country, has been talking with friends, including some childhood friends I spoke with in Los Angeles, who are Republicans. These friends shared they have evolved to the point where they believe sustaining democracy is what really matters. I think that’s an encouraging dynamic, and we live in a very divisive political age.
We need to remember that we’ve got to start drawing circles that are big enough for everyone to stand in together if we’re going to get through this.
Melita: When did you turn the book in? And are you more worried now than you were at the time?
Joyce: This is what’s called a crash book. I wrote the book starting in January, just ahead of the inauguration, and turned it in early in May. It was a weird time to be writing this book… By early February, I was questioning my sanity. it was a terrible time to be writing a book about saving democracy.
We all saw that incredible spew through the fire hose in the first month of the Trump administration – stuff we’ve practically forgotten about like DOGE, doing away with USAID, and some of the other early craziness. I’m not a fan of sugarcoating anything – yes, it is worse right now.
The first Trump administration lulled many people into the belief that even though we saw and read Project 2025, we thought he would not be able to implement it efficiently. He’s been effectively implementing his plans with a speed and breadth which is disturbing.
And, also, ultimately disturbing is the expressed willingness, although we haven’t quite gotten there, to violate the rule of law to go against a court order. That’s what we’re teetering on the brink of — it seems like we’ve been teetering on that brink for months now. Occasionally, cooler heads prevail even now and are able to get the President to walk it back. But, if we reach that point, where this administration goes into open flagrant violation of a court order that they don’t like, then we will be in an extremely serious moment.
Melita: I wake up every morning and read what you and Heather Cox Richardson wrote the night before. Then, I take a deep breath, channel my inner Dorothy Parker, and say, ‘What fresh hell is this?’ before I check out other headlines. This past week, what were the two worst developments in your mind and was there anything which gives you reasons for hope things might be turning in the right direction?
Joyce: Let me start though with the hopeful thing. This is small, but I think it’s important. Donald Trump tried to issue an executive order on elections which would have made it much more difficult for people to register to vote because they would have had to prove their citizenship. I’m an old Alabama, voting rights lawyer, and I know a poll tax when I see one. That’s a poll tax, right? Because it required a passport to be able to vote. And, for a lot of our fellow citizens, that couple of bucks puts that form of identification out of reach.
So, a court told him, “No!” What had been a temporary hold on an executive order is now a permanent injunction. Sure, it will be appealed up to higher courts. But if we’re looking for a ray of hope right now, it’s that case.
And the fact the fact that district judges, federal judges and trial courts across the country are doing their job. They are holding the line. They are delaying the administration’s efforts to do things that violate the law. These judges have been fearless because this is a President who is not afraid to paint a target on the back of a federal judge.
Melita: let’s talk about the safety of judges because you have experience in your own family. How scared are judges and what could be done if anything to make them safer?
Joyce: I have a sense that the judges have stiffened their backbone and have made a decision that this is their moment. They took an oath to serve. And they damn well intend to uphold it!
Judges are well protected. The United States Marshal Service, which is part of the Justice Department, is in charge of their protection. Early on, there was some talk the administration might regulate the Marshals in a way which would diminish protection for federal judges. That has gone absolutely nowhere. Federal judges are very capable of speaking up for themselves and even interacting with Congress when necessary.
Melita: You talk in chapter one about the Marbury v. Madison decision. That factors into a question posed by Pat Willis who asks how the courts can enforce rulings against the president and his administration?
Joyce: The Supreme Court does not have an army which enforces its decisions. The way the courts have always worked in this country is they have the legitimacy granted to them by the constitution and public confidence in their integrity.
That’s why it’s so important for the courts to have ethics rules they follow. It’s an irony that just in the moment where the public most needs to have confidence in The Supreme Court, it’s flagging.
The beauty of Marbury v. Madison. which was decided right after the constitution is in place and the country is formed, is that it creates this notion of judicial review – the Article Three branch of government which is the weakest branch in many ways.
Except, it’s the one branch which can tell the Congress or the President they must change course when they have violated the constitution or the law. We have a 250-year trajectory of engaging in judicial review and it’s deeply seated.
So, that takes us to this administration where all the best political and legal thinking of our era happens on Twitter! We have folks like the vice president and a senator who is a lawyer, expressing the thought that if the administration doesn’t like the way the courts rule maybe it just ignores those courts.
If the courts rule against the President, we have this sense that there is a deliberate thought process in this administration that they may simply try to violate what the courts are saying… When J D Vance tweeted about the possibility of going against the courts, there were Republican senators who were quietly speaking up.
If this administration goes into outright defiance of a court order, there are some bridges that even Donald Trump can’t cross! We’ve seen how public opposition has reigned this administration back in. There’s a reason they say TACO – Trump Always Chickens Out! In places like the District of Columbia, where he was threatening a takeover of local government that would have exceeded his authority, he backed down in the face of public opposition. He didn’t push the position in court, just simply backed off of it. What I see as the vehicle for enforcing court orders is public engagement, public awareness, and a willingness to stand up and tell our elected officials, especially those of us who have republican elected officials, that we expect no less of them.
Melita: One of our board members, Linda Muir, who is an attorney, asks if you know of a case currently headed towards the Supreme Court which might allege illegal or unconstitutional actions by the trump administration and therefore might bring this whole conflict to a head. Is there a case where the court might rule in favor of the constitution and against the administration?
Joyce: I think it’s the National Guard cases. The Seventh Circuit case from Chicago is already in front of the Supreme Court and the Ninth Circuit case out of Oregon is on a fast track to get there. These are cases which discuss whether Donald Trump can legally deploy the National Guard into these cities.
In the past, when the National Guard has been deployed, riots had gone on for days and the governors and mayors asked the federal government for help to restore order. It was not something the President “made up.” The trump administration has argued the courts may not look over his shoulder and review his decision to federalize and deploy state National Guard troops. That’s the flashpoint issue. This is a president whose entire administration has been built on a power grab. And so, the Supreme Court must now decide whether to tell him, “No.”
Melita: Melissa Weaver is a big fan of your chicken videos. She asks if chickens and knitting are your coping mechanisms for troubled times?
Joyce: Chickens really are a great coping mechanism. Tim Snyder, who wrote a great book – “On Tyranny” spoke to my seminar class earlier this year. He told students to “Make sure you hug the people around you a lot.”
I view my chickens the same way … I go out in the morning with a couple of kids and some neighbors and coffee, and we sit around… Chickens have really big personalities. They’re super goofy, they’ll jump up in your lap, and they’ll steal your croissant. Starting the day by laughing and loving on the people around you is an antidote to the moment we live in.
The reason we want to have a democracy is so we can all have happy lives and do whatever kooky things, like raising chickens, which give our lives life meaning. Sometimes in the fight for democracy, which has been so pressing and so overwhelming, we lose track of the need to keep joy in our lives! One of the things I loved so much when Kamala Harris was running is that she was explicit in talking about the need for us to have joy. We really shouldn’t lose sight of that.
Melita: “Trump 2028” hats are now selling for $50 online in the trump store. The sales pitch reads, “Rewrite the rules.” Bernie Stills asks how President Trump could run for a third term since the 22nd amendment seems to clearly prohibit such a campaign?
Joyce: Trump can’t run for a third term in office – he acknowledged that this week. He said something crazy like, “Well I’ve now read the constitution and I’ve realized I can’t do it.” I’m glad he finally got around to reading the constitution. This is not a close call – it is just a non-starter!
Steve Bannon is the one who’s been fueling this. Roger Stone, again on that place where everything happens – Twitter, made a point of tweeting and saying. “Bannon is wrong. This can’t happen.” When you have lost Roger Stone? The 22nd amendment is clear!
Melita: Jill Bailey asks if J. D. Vance were to become President, do you believe there would be major changes in administration policies?
Joyce: I always have to say this – “We are not kin!”
- D. Vance is a Yale educated lawyer. He’s someone who has taken an oath to uphold the constitution and our laws. He should be held accountable and right now he does not seem to be living up to that.
Melita: As an attorney and former prosecutor, what do you believe it will take to restore the reputation of the Supreme Court of the United States?
Joyce: It’s a tall order! This court has done a couple of things that people regardless of their politics should take exception to. They have thrown out precedent based on pretzel logic. Their decisions have given rise to a view that this court is about politics and personality, not precedent.
The Supreme Court will have to re-commit to honoring precedent. You can’t undo Roe v Wade and 50 years of precedent and expect people to still have confidence that you’re a court about law and fact and not a court about politics. That’s why this court’s reputation has cratered. In all the years that Gallup has been polling, the court’s reputation has never been this low.
There are also the ethical issues. The refusal to adopt a code of ethics in the light of well-known abuses like Mrs. Alito’s flag, and Justice Thomas’ vacations. That’s a real problem – the court could fix these problems! I think it’s just horrible that the Supreme Court justices won’t impose a binding code of ethics on themselves if they’re invested in restoring their integrity.
Melita: Because you mentioned Roe v Wade, what do you see as a path back to the restoration of freedom for women nationwide?
Joyce: Vote for candidates in the midterms and in 2028 who explicitly agree they will support the restoration of women’s rights to determine the course of their own health care. Congress can do it nationally.
Melita: We sit five miles from the epicenter of the Civil Rights Movement. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. always talked about “the arc of the moral universe bending towards justice.” In more recent years, Former President Barak Obama has noted sometimes the arc needs a “push” towards justice. What is your call to action for what people can do to work towards preserving democracy and repairing our divided nation?
Joyce: We learned the lessons we need to keep in mind for getting through this moment from the Civil Rights Movement. Chief among those lessons is you do not have to do this on your own. You do not have to fight the fight by yourself. You don’t have to fight the right every day. What you have to do is be in community. This is the lesson that the foot soldiers taught and I think it’s just so horrible that we’re going through this at a moment when we’ve lost so many of the foot soldiers.
Particularly having been a US attorney in Alabama, the lessons of the movement are very fresh in my mind. I think that’s the lesson – be in community. Create the community you need to move forward.
One of the chief weapons dictators use when they’re trying to come to power is to overwhelm the people. Make you feel like there’s so much you can’t keep up with it and a lot of people will just give up. They will tune out. They will feel like for self-preservation they just have to walk away and not pay attention. That’s how dictators come to power
In this moment, the battle we are fighting is not a fight for democracy in Normandy. We’re going to fight in voting booths and during elections. We are going to deliberately commit to staying informed… Maybe we’ll all go out and protest. Maybe we’ll write postcards or maybe we’ll get together on Sunday mornings and make sure that we’re fighting back against disinformation so that people understand what’s going on not what the White House says is going on.
We saw seven to eight million of our fellow Americans out in the streets exercising democratic muscle a couple of weekends ago. I love the fact that we’re rallying around the idea of “No kings.” But, in this context, “King” is just a pretty word for dictator. It’s clear that’s what we all need to push back against!
The Calvary is not coming. Nobody is going to come and save us. The Supreme Court is not going to save us. Congress is not going to save us. There are good people in all of our government institutions who will do what they can. But, ultimately, it will be up to us the voters.
Donald Trump will not cancel elections. Would-be dictators love to cloak themselves in the legitimacy of elections – that’s why Vladimir Putin still holds elections in Russia. The question is, will those elections be free and fair? That’s our job. You can be a poll watcher. You can be a poll worker. You can be a concerned citizen who helps others get educated about candidates. You can help people get registered and stay registered, which is going to be a challenge with an administration intent on making us prove citizenship in order to register.
The important thing is that you understand you’re invited to get involved. You should plug in wherever your passion and your interests and your capabilities lead. Take that first step and talk with folks around you. You don’t have to do it all on your own. With all of us doing our part, we will get through this next election and through this administration.
We will get back on track. We CAN fix democracy!
